Comments on: Marcel Khalife and the war for “objective” art http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/ i am not qualified to say this Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:19:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: yaman http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1726 yaman Thu, 04 Oct 2007 05:00:18 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1726 Re 1) No, I am not the discreditor. I just run a silly blog. But there are a number of good books written that have discredited the official Israeli narrative regarding, generally, the history of the conflict, the history of the country, the identity of the country, and the current situation. This is pretty much the case all over the world: virtually every government account is styled not around the truth, but around the preservation of government power. It is meant to promote a government monopoly of the truth. To say that the Israeli government behaves in the same way should not be a particularly contentious claim, especially for people who believe the same things about the American government, and about politicians in general. You don't need to buy into the government narrative to "identify with the Israeli side." I don't think it's impossible to identify with Israelis (not "the Israeli side," which doesn't exist, as we can see by the shocking resemblance of views in Ha`aretz and the Jerusalem Post, and by the equivalence of Avigdor Lieberman and Yitzhak Rabin). You cite diversity of opinion as if it is something to be proud of in and of itself (and as if there is no diversity of opinion in Gaza, and between members of Hamas themselves!), but I am pretty sure you would not be proud of the opinions of B`tselem or Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall, or Gideon Levy, or Amira Hass. Have you really descended to the level that, if Hamas decides to censor a novel, it is okay for Israel supporters to do the same? For somebody who is so anti-Hamas, I would imagine you might have higher standards, not equivalent ones. 2) What do you mean by this? I specifically said "Israeli government," and by this I did not mean the various governments that have held power, but the government, the institutions that form it. What do you mean by "right?" Is this a moral thing you are speaking of, or a question of accuracy and truth? Re 1) No, I am not the discreditor. I just run a silly blog. But there are a number of good books written that have discredited the official Israeli narrative regarding, generally, the history of the conflict, the history of the country, the identity of the country, and the current situation. This is pretty much the case all over the world: virtually every government account is styled not around the truth, but around the preservation of government power. It is meant to promote a government monopoly of the truth. To say that the Israeli government behaves in the same way should not be a particularly contentious claim, especially for people who believe the same things about the American government, and about politicians in general. You don’t need to buy into the government narrative to “identify with the Israeli side.” I don’t think it’s impossible to identify with Israelis (not “the Israeli side,” which doesn’t exist, as we can see by the shocking resemblance of views in Ha`aretz and the Jerusalem Post, and by the equivalence of Avigdor Lieberman and Yitzhak Rabin). You cite diversity of opinion as if it is something to be proud of in and of itself (and as if there is no diversity of opinion in Gaza, and between members of Hamas themselves!), but I am pretty sure you would not be proud of the opinions of B`tselem or Israeli Anarchists Against the Wall, or Gideon Levy, or Amira Hass.

Have you really descended to the level that, if Hamas decides to censor a novel, it is okay for Israel supporters to do the same? For somebody who is so anti-Hamas, I would imagine you might have higher standards, not equivalent ones.

2) What do you mean by this? I specifically said “Israeli government,” and by this I did not mean the various governments that have held power, but the government, the institutions that form it. What do you mean by “right?” Is this a moral thing you are speaking of, or a question of accuracy and truth?

]]> By: david friedlander http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1712 david friedlander Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:28:12 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1712 1. How has the "Israeli side" been discredited? Who has decided and declared that this is the case - is Yaman Salahi the discreditor? If so what scholarship can he refer to that unequivocally shows that. There are plenty of academics who identify with the Israeli side Do you blame all of them of "naivity" and "idiocy"? First of all this constitutes an ad hominem attack on this very large group of people. Second of all you employed interesting adjectives for this attack - naivity, idiocy. You blame the other side of always finding a spokesman who is tied to the Israel Foreign Ministry line. First of all this is not true, often times there are a spectrum opinions. It reeks of irony that such an accusation would be leveled against a side that have 22 countries devoid of any meaningful freedom of speech Where is there more diversity of opinion in Israel or under the Hamas government? I also don't understand this claim of censorship against poetry and art. I have heard of people accusing Israel supporters of censoring academics/activists, but its a first for me to hear that there is a concerted effort to censor Palestinian art. I find that ironic since at the moment Hamas is censoring many artistic/cultural forms under its Islamic jurisdiction than the Jewish state has. 2. It is incoherent based on your post whether Israel is wrong period or just the Israeli government. You wrote the Israeli government, so if when elections come up very soon this could change drastically. 1. How has the “Israeli side” been discredited? Who has decided and declared that this is the case – is Yaman Salahi the discreditor? If so what scholarship can he refer to that unequivocally shows that.
There are plenty of academics who identify with the Israeli side Do you blame all of them of “naivity” and “idiocy”? First of all this constitutes an ad hominem attack on this very large group of people. Second of all you employed interesting adjectives for this attack – naivity, idiocy.

You blame the other side of always finding a spokesman who is tied to the Israel Foreign Ministry line.
First of all this is not true, often times there are a spectrum opinions. It reeks of irony that such an accusation would be leveled against a side that have 22 countries devoid of any meaningful freedom of speech
Where is there more diversity of opinion in Israel or under the Hamas government?

I also don’t understand this claim of censorship against poetry and art. I have heard of people accusing Israel supporters of censoring academics/activists, but its a first for me to hear that there is a concerted effort to censor Palestinian art. I find that ironic since at the moment Hamas is censoring many artistic/cultural forms under its Islamic jurisdiction than the Jewish state has.

2. It is incoherent based on your post whether Israel is wrong period or just the Israeli government. You wrote the Israeli government, so if when elections come up very soon this could change drastically.

]]> By: yaman http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1679 yaman Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:09:07 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1679 Sorry, I did not mean to insinuate approval, I will change the word to more accurately reflect this. Thanks for pointing it out! And of course thanks for getting Van Cleef's statements on the record. Sorry, I did not mean to insinuate approval, I will change the word to more accurately reflect this. Thanks for pointing it out! And of course thanks for getting Van Cleef’s statements on the record.

]]> By: Richard Silverstein http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1678 Richard Silverstein Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:07:24 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1678 That wasn't precise, Yaman. While I understand that the Salvation Army might be sensitive to renting its hall to an anti-Zionist organization, I said that their decision to cancel is not the decision I would've made. There were also other aspects of the Army's decision of which I was critical. For one, they made no attempt to compromise with Al Awda in order to find a way not to cancel the performance there. And after talking with Manal tonight I plan on updating my coverage with a 4th post on this incident. From Manal's comments to me I felt that a few of the things the Army representative told me are certainly in question if not discredited entirely. That wasn’t precise, Yaman. While I understand that the Salvation Army might be sensitive to renting its hall to an anti-Zionist organization, I said that their decision to cancel is not the decision I would’ve made. There were also other aspects of the Army’s decision of which I was critical. For one, they made no attempt to compromise with Al Awda in order to find a way not to cancel the performance there.

And after talking with Manal tonight I plan on updating my coverage with a 4th post on this incident. From Manal’s comments to me I felt that a few of the things the Army representative told me are certainly in question if not discredited entirely.

]]> By: Nadia http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1639 Nadia Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:58:36 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1639 Did i seriously just use the word blogosphere? What the fuck? Did i seriously just use the word blogosphere? What the fuck?

]]> By: Nadia http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1638 Nadia Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:52:15 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1638 I've noticed a trend in the Iraqi blogosphere with the LGF fanboy commenters that whenever there's a blogger that's particularly anti-US or in bed with the left they try to start a rumour that they're Palestinian, because obviously that's the worst thing ever. I’ve noticed a trend in the Iraqi blogosphere with the LGF fanboy commenters that whenever there’s a blogger that’s particularly anti-US or in bed with the left they try to start a rumour that they’re Palestinian, because obviously that’s the worst thing ever.

]]> By: Omar http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/comment/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/comment-page-1/#comment-1635 Omar Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:06:02 +0000 http://www.yamansalahi.com/2007/09/23/censorship/marcel-khalife-and-the-war-for-objective-art/#comment-1635 Excellent post.. I have passed it a long to some friends This reminds me of how Urban Outfitters was forced to stop selling Kofiya's (read it about it here http://www.kabobfest.com/2007/01/kaffiya-kraze-squashed.html) I'm attending Marcel's concert in Toronto next week, and I can't wait! Excellent post.. I have passed it a long to some friends

This reminds me of how Urban Outfitters was forced to stop selling Kofiya’s (read it about it here http://www.kabobfest.com/2007/01/kaffiya-kraze-squashed.html)

I’m attending Marcel’s concert in Toronto next week, and I can’t wait!

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